You're entitled to your opinion too, no matter how misguided it is. My opinion is that parents need 1162 so that they've got an alternative to local-board disasters like APS, Dekalb County, and Bibb County. Your opinion that local control is better 'in most circumstances' completely, willfully ignores the needs of parents & children in districts like these...and as usual, your opinion comes down to Funding, rather than what's best for educating the child. No to 1162 eliminates alternatives for parents in those types of districts but no matter to you - Funding is more important than Educating.

Fact (not opinion) is...the traditional public school model you support is failing most American children. I completely agree that the charter school model (and private school model for that matter) should be applied to all traditional public schools. Unfortunately, liberals and union members (See Chicago) do NOT want this to occur. They want automatic raises during an economic recession & zero accountability for their inability to educate. So since these failed educrats won't get out of the way of the Georgian parent who wants their child to actually receive an education, 1162 is needed to ensure that the future of GA public schools includes charters.

Steely Dan: APS and DeKalb County have probably approved more start-up charter schools than anywhere in the State, so hopefully your ongoing fears for those poor children are now allayed.

Frank,

The resolution to allow state approve charter schools grants more local control to parents. You can't get more local than that. In the absence of alternatives, public schools don't have to work hard to try to keep parents happy. When you provide a choice it forces everybody, charter and traditional public schools alike to work hard. Look at the college system in the US which is rated as one of the best in the world and compare that to the middle/high school system in the US which is rates as one of the worst. Public colleges in the US are forced to work just as hard as private schools at attracting the right talent and both can coexist and thrive. As far as schools being for-profit, you should consider multiple studies that prove that entities that operate on a for profit principle end up being the most cost efficient solution. That's why capitalism as a system won and socialism lost.

Did you know that state employees have not had a raise in 4 years? I have spent many weekends and weeknights doing all the paperwork required to do my job as a teacher. As a single parent, my own child has gone without to buy needed supplies, like paper and therapy materials that my school system doesn't have the money to purchase. Many teachers pay for children's lunches and field trips when their students have no money to pay for it. Charter schools will not take any child with a disability or those with behavior problems. They pick and choose who they want. Be careful what you wish for. It may not be that the grass is always greener on the other side. The solution is to quit funding AFTER school activities and unnecessary staff and focus all of our money and attention on the students. Tell me why a superintendent needs to make a half of a million dollars or why a coach needs to make $200,000. That's the problem. Put the money back into the schools. We do our job every day to best of our ability with what little resources are provided

Kaitlyn, here in Cherokee County, teachers are getting across-the-board 3% raises in January, according to a July budgetary article Rodney Thrash posted here.

Also...there are tens of millions of Americans who haven't had a JOB, much less a raise, in 4 years either. Times are tough - we are all dealing with tightened budgets and the resulting fallout of the Recession.

I'd think that publicly-funded charters would have to accept special-needs children, else face lawsuits. Where are these lawsuits, if your allegation is correct?

I agree with you 100% on overpaid superintendents and athletic coaches. I'd much rather people like you on the front lines of education get my tax $$$ than some superintendent using it to fill up his gas-guzzling SUV via monthly car allowance. The people actually Teaching & funding for their classrooms should be First priority. Those Administering or Supervising should be paid last, if at all. Instead, it's the other way around, which is why we have furloughs. What I don't understand is why so many of the teachers I speak to support this system, rather than one that funds their needs 100% first. Do teachers really need Admins and Supers in order to do their job?

Mrs Hooper, what exactly did last year's court ruling achieve then? What did that Court ruling overturn? That decision was a short-sighted one not supported by most Georgians and 1162 will go a long way toward righting the wrongs inherent in that decision. The fact that 1162 itself was supported by a 2/3 bipartisan majority itself speaks volumes. Were 2/3 of GA elected House reps wrong?

Re:Parental involvement: Not sure why this is such an issue with you. Is there a requirement that traditional public schools include parents on local school districts? The many years I spent on my son's school PTA had zero parental involvement in curriculum, funding, and other school issues of real importance to my son's education. We were little more than vehicles for fund-raising. So spare me the 'parental involvement' angle, as there's clearly none required in traditional public schools.

Finally, please stop misguiding people about funding issues if 1162 passes. The amendment is clear that no local monies will be used to fund state-approved charter schools. I know that Funding is the end-all, be-all item of importance for you status-quo advocates but rest assured the taxpayer-filled trough that trad. public schools siphon $$$ from won't be affected. Not that it matters - increases in funding have never and will never fix the problems of our failed liberal public educational model. Thus the need for charters in the first place.

Elizabeth,
State authority to authorize charter schools, or do almost anything in education, is one lawsuit away from falling to the same "exclusive" power ruling that ended the State Charter Commission. Justice Nahmias spells the issue out clearly in his dissent: http://scogblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/gwinnett-county-v-cox-nahmias-dissent.pdf
Would you support a lawsuit that removes the state completely from education in Georgia except as a revenue stream?

Furthermore Mrs Hooper, your complaints about 1162 creating unnecessary gov't rings hollow when the facts are presented. The passage of 1162 would result in the creation of a charter commission that would have 5 people ALREADY EMPLOYED BY THE DOE on it. And how would these people be funded? From the Charter Application itself, not from the taxpayer.

I.E. This would have ZERO impact on existing funding and would not result in the need to employ ANY new gov't workers.

Ms. Hooper, I have read in many of these blog posts the statistics. Of the 60 schools that applied for charters while there was a commission, only 4 were approved. That's terrible. Zero were approved the year before the commission. That's total failure by our local school systems.

I am tired of those very well to do people saying "my school is good, so you don't need one".

True but to be clear, local school districts are already taking the property tax money from charter parents without providing an education for the children of those parents. Local district $$ is NOT 'following the child' (not quoting you here CJ - just using an oft-repeated phrase).

Fortunately, metrics show that charter schools do a better job of educating and graduating kids and at a much lower cost than the traditional public school model, a model that 95% of America agrees no longer provides an excellent education for children.

If the national PTA generally opposed such charter school amendments and the Georgia PTA supported this particular amendment, would you argue that the state organization should comply with the dictates of the national organization? Or would you argue that the national organization should allow more local control when it comes to advocacy activities having to do with specific ballot questions at the state level?

Also, I would argue that opposing the Charter School Amendment in Georgia IS supporting our students. I hope that both sides of this issue will get together and seek to persuade our state representatives to fully fund QBE.

If the National PTA generally opposed such measures, we would have had a PTO.

RE: "Why not incorporate those items that make private and charter schools succeed into the public school system?"

Steely Dan seems to operating under the false impression that private and charter schools are, overall, better than public schools, despite evidence to the contrary.

http://education-portal.com/articles/Public_Schools_vs_Private_Schools_New_Study_Says_There_is_No_Difference.html

http://www.caller.com/news/2012/aug/26/public-schools-vs-their-unproven-alternatives/

In fact, results for private and charter schools are mixed, at best. For example, Cobb County voted last year not to renew the charter for a charter school that was not performing up to the standards of public schools: http://www.mdjonline.com/view/full_story/15842000/article-Reality-tough-to-Imagine-for-ill-fated-Cobb-charter-school.

At the risk of offending, this entire debate is between those who are aware of the reality that private/charters are not a magic bullet, and those who live in the fantasy that they are.

To be clear, there is a magic bullet, several rather: More hours in the school day...more school days in the school year...buildings that don't leak, don't make children sick, provide heat when it's cold and air conditioning when it's hot...smaller classes...and the best and brightest teachers that we can find. I'm sorry to report that those things cost money. And if people are going to whine about their school taxes, then they should expect crappy schools.

C.J.
Yes, results are mixed, but the bottom line is that charter schools are accountable to their communities. If they don't deliver, they disappear. My area high school failed to graduate 40% of its seniors. Yet they continue to operate, year after year.

CJ: You can say what you want, but most of the top ranked high schools in the country are charter and magnet schools, including in a very rough area in a poor town I know of up North, which was in the past far behind the wealthier town I grew up in.

Steely...You took my statement/question out of context and massaged it in order to make it support your argument for charter schools...My statement/question was prefaced with an "if" and at no point did I say that the charter & private school model was better than traditional schools. As you should remember from other posts on this site, I have pointed out specific issues with the test results of CCA compared to CCSD whereby, CCA performed no better than CCSD and even worse than CCSD.

@Rae...Traditional public schools are accountable to their communities. Period. Unfortunately, some communities apparantly aren't active enough in overseeing their boards or active enough in their children's education. There could be a multitude of reasons for this. The proposed amendment lessens the local communities' control over their children's education and allows state-appointed bureaucrats who are subject to state political will & lobbyists to infringe upon local education.

With traditional schools, you have a problem, go to the local board and super. With state appointed bureaucrats, you have a problem, travel to Atlanta and try to schedule a meeting. Good Luck!

@Brian: You are correct...most of the top ranked schools in the country are magnet and charter schools. What you fail to realize is that they aren't top ranked schools simply because of their organization structure but because they have taken the top -- the very top -- of the student bodies from the local school systems and housed them under one roof. Heck, if we took the top 10% of students from any school district in GA and placed them under 1 roof in that district, that school would be tops in the country!

If you're talking about a handful of magnet or charter schools, it's easy to appear to get better simply by attracting the top students. If you try to roll magnets and charters to the masses and educate all students under those models, you'll have exactly the same results....With the exception that for-profit charters will cost you much, much more!

Talk about 'taking things out of context', Frank?

One charter school (CCA) doesn't equate to all charter schools anymore than APS == all public schhols.. I'm sure if the CCA was spending the $$$ per-child that the wasteful district is, its results would be higher. As it is, CCA didn't fail to meet CRCT guidelines in its first underfunded year, something that 4 overly-funded CCSD schools couldn't say the year before.

And no APS, Bibb County or Dekalb County shenanigans would ever be tolerated at the charter level, as they'd go out of business when parents remove children from them.

While you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how misguided it is, privates and charters do a better job of educating children. Their HS graduation rates are far higher than the abysmal rates of the public education system and they remain open when Teacher Unions go on strike and shut down public schools. They succeed primarily because they are in the business of Educating Children, not Whining For Funding, which is the primary concern of all public education.

@Rae...true, but not. The board of the charter is the first place to go if you have an issue. If they don't resolve the issue, the next step is to go to the state appointed board for results. It's the state appointed board that has ultimate control of the funding for a state-sponsored charter. And when you're talking big-business for-profit charter schools doling out money, good luck getting funding for a problematic charter school canceled and their approval yanked.

True, it can be tough to get setting at CCSD board meetings, however, I don't believe CCA publicizes its board meetings and I believe they hold them jointly with their sister school in another county. Makes it tough to attend.

CCA doesn't offer transportation because they don't have the money to do so because the local board didn't approve them.

The traditional public school model is not about educating children. First & foremost, its primary goal is Funding for superintendents, admins, and teachers. Its second goal is then shoveling as much taxpayer cash as possible to the numerous For-Profit companies that are lined up at the public-school trough: For-profit companies that supply books, computers, buses, gas for buses, lunch food, etc. The Ombudsman company alone charged GA taxpayers over $15 Million for services that included graduation coaching and working with at-risk students. That's $15 million being spent on a For-Profit company by our public school system.

I can guess your response: "It's OK When We Do It!!!"

Last and least, it then attempts to provide an adequate education of children. It fails at providing this for 1 of 3 GA children who dropout of school and don't even get a HS diploma. It then uses this statistic (that it helped create!!) to enhance its chances at acquiring more funding (i.e. the primary goal). And the Cycle of Mediocrity and Failure continues.

Parents aren't stupid and see this for what it is. It's why they opt-out in droves at the first opportunity at an alternative to this dismally-failed liberal education system.

CCA can't afford transportation, but they can afford to pay their management company $891,000-- a full $100,000 over and above the proposed fee in the 5-year budget in their petition? And is there a school nurse this year, or are volunteers still manning the clinic? Interesting priorities. On test scores, CCA did not meet the state average in math in two grade levels in CRCT, and fell way short of the state average on the writing assessment. Yes, public schools contract with private vendors, but it is a transparent process that is a transparent competitive bidding process. And, vendors provide a service or goods, they do not determine budgets, hire and fire staff or make curriculum decisions-- that is the job of a board.

I have a lot more faith in an individual charter board than a collective county school board. There's a lot less money at stake.

Jen Falk on Gwinnett: When I started my campaign, I painstakingly reviewed the school budget. One of the things I kept finding is just how difficult it is to question the status quo. For example, my team and I noticed with curiosity a line item “Banking Fees and services for central office and local schools (including fees for investment advisor)” It turns out this is where the the $150,000 is buried (and probably has been for 5 years) to pay for 2 economic development folks at the Chamber. When GCPS defended the positions by claiming without empirical data that Partnership Gwinnett brought $800 million to the area, providing $6 million in tax revenue to GCPS, curiosity turned to disbelief.

Please refer to the federal definition of a charter school, which Mr. Lewis recently posted: http://peachtreecorners.patch.com/articles/must-we-resort-to-fabrications-when-discussing-the-lives-of-children-dfa090c6

In particular:
SEC. 5210. DEFINITIONS.

(1) CHARTER SCHOOL- The term charter school' means a public school that —

(G) complies with the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, and part B of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act;

(H) is a school to which parents choose to send their children, and that admits students on the basis of a lottery, if more students apply for admission than can be accommodated;

Steely...So your belief is that every school board member, superintendent, administrator and teacher is in it for the money...to get rich off of the taxpayers? Once again, you've outdone yourself! Your comments show your lack of knowledge and business.

In respect to using for-profit vendors, "It's OK When We Do It!!!" is true because unlike CCA and for-profit charters, the local school board that is duly elected by the public, sets the operating budget, determines what needs to be purchased, puts purchases out for bid, establishes criteria for approving bids, publishes the budget, holds open board meetings, publishes notice of said meetings, and is accountable to the public via elections. For-Profit Charters...No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No and No.

You love to talk about graduation rates...so here goes. Graduation rates are impacted by more than just how good our schools are. There are socio-economic issues that impact graduation rates. In the many parts of the south, education hasn't historically been perceived as being important. In the past, the south has been heavy agriculture, mills, and other "blue-collar" professions. Basic schooling sufficed. As a result, many rural adults don't have high school degrees and may not push their children to excel in school. We're just one generation from the Deliverance, Appalachia, and poor south. It takes time for new culture to take root. AL, GA, FL, SC, MS, LA all have low graduation rates!

Frank, being in the private sector makes me far more aware of 'business' than anyone in the for-profit business of public education, where no lack of performance ever results in job loss or lack of raises. Only in the public sector are employees rewarded for such behavior as is seen both in public education, as well as transportation and other gov't sectors.

Thank you for your honesty in acknowledging that there is much that is "For Profit" in public education.

re:socio-economic issues - If that's the case, then how is More Funding for those regions going to help? If socio-economic issues are a root cause, how does increasing Superintendent, admin, and teacher pay help these students of poor families? We've got a near-30 year history here in GA where per-child spending across the state (including poor regions) has increased over 100%....yet student performance has remained stagnant or decreased in many areas.

If parents without diplomas aren't pushing their children to graduate in those areas, how will increasing those districts' budgets change this?

Closer to home, there were under-performing schools in the half-billion-$$$ CCSD just a few years ago, prior to the charter school's existence. Why do you feel those parents should remain trapped in these failing schools, rather than having an alternative? Why is it OK to take the parents' property tax and not provide a quality education with it?

Parent involvement wasn't part of the amendment because it had nothing to do with the issue - providing an alternate authorizer when local boards deny a charter application that is properly put together and has community support. GA PTA was just grasping for straws by coming up with this ridiculous idea. How many local schools have a provision for parent involvement, engagement and decision making? Actually, many charter schools have mandated parent hours. Ours does.

Rae...Many public schools welcome parent volunteers. Many charter schools MANDATE parent involvement. For many parents, a mandate to "volunteer" at a school is unreasonable based upon their family and work schedules. As a result, a MANDATE could prevent some children from attending a charter school and thus making the charter...not so public.

The GA PTA is correct in their position. There is no need to set up a separate bureaucracy. It would be better if all of the effort and money advocating for charters was instead being directed to our existing school systems.

Rae: "How many local schools have a provision for parent involvement, engagement and decision making? "

Answer: ZERO. Although they do love parents who volunteer for the endless fund-raising that the PTA coordinates. Forget about making any real difference in your child's education via PTA involvement though.

Yet somehow, public school status-quo advocates think a lack of politically-mandated parental involvement in charter schools is some sort of Red Flag or dis-qualifier.

Hypocrisy, cleanup on aisle 4!!!

Make up your mind, Frank. Is parental involvement a good or bad thing? Obviously I was never forced to volunteer for PTA involvement but I don't understand why you seem to think that mandating parents to be involved with their child's education is a bad thing? Nor do I think you're correct in stating that it's some sort of make/break issue in regards to the enrollment of the child. The charter school is open to all, contrary to your dishonest implications to the contrary.

It'd be better for public schools if all the energy spent on incessantly whining and complaining about a lack of funding was instead spent on educating children.

Steely...Want to talk about whining? You are one of the biggest whiners around! "I want charter. I want charter. I want charter." Stop your whining and actually come forward with intellectual comments and arguments! You're such a bore.

And Frank, when faced with facts, predictably devolves into Phase 3 of the Failed Liberal Method of Debate: Shoot the Messenger.

You're the first -- and only -- person in this thread to hurl personal insults, Frank. It's OK - I can take it, as it's the First Sign of a Lost Debate. For every statistic I provide, you provide an excuse for the failure of public education. An excuse that is NOT solvable via "More Funding"...yet that ends up being your idea of a 'solution' to any and all problems.

You know your liberal ideologies are complete, total failures. So you've got nothing left to do but attack the messenger. The Message remains unchanged: Your liberal ideologies when applied to public education have been unmitigated disasters for America's future, as evidenced by our global ed. ranking and our dismal state ranking.

You aren't interested in any statistics I've provided, since all come to the same conclusion: Your ideas are TOTAL failures NOT solvable by taking more Taxpayer Money.

Call me some more names, Frankie! It reveals the failure of your side of this debate more than anything I could possible type.

Diane, my children go to CCA and I believe you are confused regarding this school. The local board did NOT approve this Charter School. As a matter of fact they denied it numerous times. Kind of funny since this school is providing a great education to the children enrolled. It was denied based on one issue, power and greed. The local BOE does not want a school it does not have complete control of in its district. It has nothing to do with the education the school could provide to the children. Which is very disheartening since this should have been one of the main factors! Regarding parents being on the board of Charters, CCA has at least 2 parents on the board that I know of. Also, this amendment does not take money away from district schools. The only money these schools would receive from the state would be the per pupil funding. Which the district loses if my child goes to private school or is home schooled. Therefore, the assumption by you is that if a Charter is denied that all of those parents would remain in the district school. I can tell you if this amendment fails my children will not. Therefore, you still will not receive that state funded per pupil amount. You do however, receive my local taxes regardless of where I send my child. So again, how is this bad? You are making money on every child not attending the district school at the local tax level.

Rae,
Please answer Diane's question. Why won't you acknowledge that under current georgia law if a charter petitioner is denied by a local board, they have the right to appeal to the State BOE. Why duplicate that mechanism that is already in place? What are you after? Life insurance in case someone challenges that authority. We're all being dragged thru this mess so you can have an insurance policy? Also - the state BOE had this authority prior to the Charter Commission which was disbanded. Was is challenged then? Please site the legal case numbers if you find any. Thanks.

Elizabeth/Diane
I already answered this same question above and on several of your (and Frank's) other posts. I will post it again in case you missed it….

State authority to authorize charter schools, or do almost anything in education, is one lawsuit away from falling to the same "exclusive" power ruling that ended the State Charter Commission. The lawsuit addressed the constitutionality of the State Charter Commission but the precedent of the judgment would be applicable to even the State BOE. The existing State BOE authority would also be struck down if tested against the "exclusive" wording used in the Supreme Court ruling. Justice Nahmias spells the issue out clearly in his dissent: http://scogblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/gwinnett-county-v-cox-nahmias-dissent.pdf
Please read it.

Would you support a lawsuit that removes the state completely from education in Georgia except as a revenue stream?

Thomas...Your reply supports Elizabeth's contention that the state ALREADY has the authority to approve charter schools. The state would not have the authority when:

1. There is a lawsuit challenging the state's authority, and
2. Only if the state lost

Until then, the state can authorize charter schools.

Frank,
So what do you think the chances are that no lawsuit will be filed?

Thomas...Don't know. There haven't been any in the year + since the Supreme Court issued their opinion. There could be a lawsuit tomorrow or never. Until it happens, the state shouldn't be trying to change the constitution.

Frank,
Would you support a lawsuit that removes the state completely from education in Georgia except as a revenue stream?

Thomas...There is a place for local control and there is a place for state oversight. For instance, we have local police, but the sheriff's dept trumps them. We have state patrol which trumps the sheriff's department. We have GBI which trumps the state patrol. And lastly, we have the FBI which trumps the GBI.

In respect to public education, I believe that the locally elected Board of Education should have control of public education in their attendance zone. The state should act as a funding mechanism in most cases. Only when the local district is truly failing, the Board is dysfunctional, there is gross corruption or other breaches of state and federal law should the state step in.

Under HR1162, the state is seizing control of education from local districts and placing it in the hands of appointed bureaucrats. The state plans to turn education over to for-profit management companies which operate much more secretly than traditional public education. And worse, the track record of these management companies are no better or worse than our current schools.

HR1162 places our children's education in the hands of politicians who probably couldn't handle a real job...Rogers defaulted on a million dollar loan and bankrupted a business, Deal was run out of congress after using political influence for personal gain, our banking chairman is being sued for banking corruption, Kathy Cox filed bankruptcy, and on and on.

Frank,
I read your response as a wordy “yes”. I think the ink on that lawsuit is already dry and if the Public Charter Amendment doesn’t pass, it will be filed in short order. The result will be immediate shutdown of the current State charter schools.

The flaw in pointing out the failings of our state elected leaders is that it presumes the local board members and superintendents hold some moral high ground. We could have some real fun with that discussion.

If you want a quick turnaround on quality, let the parent choose the school. Nothing says quality like a waiting list. You figure out quickly what works and it can be duplicated. Elections are great but they are at best on a 2 year cycle. Change comes slow. We loose (and have lost) generations of students waiting for needed change. Two levels of accountability would keep the board members and legislators tuned to the voters and the schools tuned to quality and performance.

Thomas...You read incorrectly. My response to you was that the state should be hands off unless there is corruption, gross incompetence, gross failure within a specific district. To give the state blanket authority to act in ANY district for ANY cause is problematic.

Frank,
What is your opinion on the 2 levels of accountability? In particular, adding parent choice to drive education performance.

Diane, I don't favor cutting teacher pay. I favor completely, totally funding the classroom First. Teachers, students, etc. Fund these so that there are no furlough days. Whatever is left over can be used to pay admins & Superintendents, neither of which are needed for teachers to do their jobs. From my many teacher meetings over the last decade, the last thing teachers want is more Admin Red Tape.

Anyone in the private sector can attest that noone's job gets any easier or better by adding more Management. I suspect public education could easily get by with cutting loads of fat from the Admin Overhead portion of the budget.

This amendment won't create any new gov't positions. Existing state DOE members would serve on the commission and any expenses incurred would be picked up by the charter school in question, not the tax payer. No new gov't hires. No extra expense to the taxpayer.

I don't see anything wrong with diverting some resources to charter schools. Charter parents are already having their property taxes seized from them and NOT used on educating their child (Local property taxes are NOT 'following the child' where the local board didn't approve the charter). And throwing good money after bad (continuing to hurl money at public education without any accountability) and expecting improvement is honestly just a sign of insanity or that the Chicago Teacher Union is in town.

Steely...You lack of financial and business is showing again. Admins and Superintendents are necessary for the operation of a school district. Further to have quality individuals in these roles, the district must pay competitive salaries.

Anyone in the private sector knows that you must have managers overseeing the sales forces, setting goals, and policies to ensure that the sales force does its job. Anyone in the private sector knows that you must have accounting staffs and controllers to ensure that the accounting is approriate, vendors paid, and corporate assets are safeguarded against theft, loss, and mismanagement. Anyone in business knows that you must have council on staff or retainer to ensure that you don't break the law, review contracts, etc.

Every great successful for-profit organization has reached success by hiring quality management personnel. Your argument that management personnel isn't needed is flat wrong....Again!

Frank, if increasing the salaries of local Supers & Admins produced better results...how come GA's educational rankings have plummeted the past 2 decades that we've been doing this?

No teacher's performance is improved by increasing the pay of a superintendent or admin. No student's ability to learn is improved by increasing the pay of a superintendent or admin. As usual, your ideology is a total failure when the cold shower of reality is turned on to it. But since it involves "Spend! Spend! Spend!", it's predictably the only idea you can come up with. You've clearly got no idea what it takes to succeed in the private sector if you believe that More Management is the Key to Success. Every honest private sector worker in this thread is laughing at you. But 'More Management' is the same as 'More Government' to you.

Some of us don't need the managerial babysitting you clearly require for success, Frank. I'm betting no teacher does.

But (at least in my county) there was a time when districts got "all the money they need". Our superintendent incessantly pines for the days "before the austerity cuts", as if this was some sort of Shangri La period of educational enlightenment...yet a cursory glance at test scores and HS graduation rates for that period shows no discernible difference whatsoever between then and now.

Schools have been getting plenty of money over the past few decades. Per-child spending in GA has doubled the past 20 years. Where's the associated uptick in student performance?

PS: I know you aren't making the 'for-profit==evil' argument but it's noteworthy to point out that the companies providing the textbooks, lunches, and playgrounds in your example are all for-profit companies employed by the pub. ed. system. I've got no problems with these companies making a profit, btw. Incentive is a good thing, contrary to the complaints of Frank and his ilk.

Steely...For what it's worth, there is something called "time value of money" and "inflation index". Essentially, a dollar 20 years ago bought more than a dollar today.

You stated that "per-child spending in Georgia has doubled the past 20 years". I'll trust your statement is accurate; however, based upon the inflation index, there hasn't been a doubling of real per-child spending. Instead, it would only be roughly at 21% real increase in total spending. And that 21% real increase could easily be attributable to an acceleration of capital expenditures required to accomodate the influx of population/students.

Hi Frank,
So happy someone is taking time to read the legislation. I am not an expert, just a concerned citizen reading between the lines which is exactly what we all have to do because the legislation is intentionally worded to not cause alarm and give leeway to take future action that is not stated explicitly. In my reading, the key is "otherwise authorized" in terms of funding. The general assembly determines the QBE formula and the BOE is responsible for distributing Federal funds I believe. I need to do much more research on that aspect. As in HB 797, the assembly can modify the formula, sign the bill and then the number crunchers say after July 1st in this case - look what the new amount for state charters is! Because Georgia cannot run a deficit, clearly money for HR 1162 and the pay raise just approved on July 1st has to reduce funding somewhere else. I heard another rumor of ESplost money being diverted to state charters - again perhaps a call to the state budget office is in order. Interesting that NO ONE will tell the voters where exactly the money's coming from. Despicable.

Hi Frank,
So happy someone is taking time to read the legislation. I am not an expert, just a concerned citizen reading between the lines which is exactly what we all have to do because the legislation is intentionally worded to not cause alarm and give leeway to take future action that is not stated explicitly. In my reading, the key is "otherwise authorized" in terms of funding. The general assembly determines the QBE formula and the BOE is responsible for distributing Federal funds I believe. I need to do much more research on that aspect. As in HB 797, the assembly can modify the formula, sign the bill and then the number crunchers say after July 1st in this case - look what the new amount for state charters is! Because Georgia cannot run a deficit, clearly money for HR 1162 and the pay raise just approved on July 1st has to reduce funding somewhere else. I heard another rumor of ESplost money being diverted to state charters - again perhaps a call to the state budget office is in order. Interesting that NO ONE will tell the voters where exactly the money's coming from. Despicable don't you think.

continued - sorry not to answer each specific question - the short answer to money in my opinion is that the General Assembly and the Gov. have broad or all, authority over state funds. They can do whatever is voted on, they have a plan and no one's talking. To answer #4 - this is a huge statement in HR 1162 that I have not heard discussed yet. Does it open the door to vouchers? It is vague and I'm sure deceptive. As usual, no one's talking. If you know of a constitutional lawyer, it would be very appropriate to get a legal opinion. If I can find one, I'll write in.

Elizabeth,
The entire lawsuit was a challenge to the State's authority. The lawsuit was directed at the State Charter Commission but the precedent reaches potentially much further and will be tested. I find no comfort in the assertion that the education power brokers will not secure their "exclusive" authority through the courts.

As far as my dog... I do not have an executive salary/benefits, guaranteed raises, generous retirement, powerful voting bloc, or tenure in the fight.
I have my children and my tax dollars.

Thanks Diane and AJC - finally this is getting some wide spread press!

The Walmart heiress is known for her support of conservative issues. You also have to wonder what the Koch brothers have to do with this. They want to re-segregate schools. And they want to dismantle every government program. One of their goals is to destroy the public school system. http://www.thenation.com/blog/167502/koch-brothers-exposed

Or perhaps from companies that would like to open up shop in Georgia. I wouldn't want to open a new business in a state that ranks near the bottom in education. Ed reform in Georgia (and every other state) is an issue that touches everyone and all areas of business. No one seems to care about the money and time that educator groups and unions are devoting to stop passage of 1162.

Frank,
One additional consideration on the "Hope Scholarship effect"... There are 4 states that exceed us in participation rate on the SAT. 3 of those states also exceed us in performance.

It's interesting. I agree of the irrelevancy of the SAT scores statistic but what's amazing is that...no matter how many billions we spend on GA public education ($7+ billion in 2012), these #s never really improve. At some point, shouldn't GA at least aspire to be the 'best of the worst' of the states that match our high SAT participation?

Instead, it's year after year of mediocrity, year after year of excuses, year after year of multi-billion-$$ ed. budgets, and year upon year of complaints that "We need more funding!!".

An increase in charter schools, esp. at the HS level cannot possibly make things worse here in woeful GA. 1162 will help make that a reality.

Elizabeth,
Deep breath...... I am for charter schools, school choice, taxpayer value, and the Public Charter School Amendment.... and .... I am a fiscal conservative ... and ... I don't expect you to understand that. One breath.

What "isn't true" is your belief that this will create some sort of additional burden for the GA taxpayer.

It will not.

If it passes, this amendment won't result in the single, solitary creation of a single gov't job. The new commission would be filled by existing, already-employed State DOE members. Any expenses they incur would be picked up by the charter school application process, not the tax payer.

Any system that bypasses unions is a good system. Unions are completely, totally worthless and full of lecherous, lazy people with no incentive nor desire to perform. I.E. Chicago. Unions often protect & continue paying pedophile teachers, due to 'contractual obligations'.

Last I checked, GA teachers don't have a voice because they 'bypass unions' too. That's a credit to GA teachers. Keep unions out of GA!!

PS: Inner city public schools are some of the most racially-isolated schools on planet Earth. Visit LA or NYC and see for yourself.

Mr Hart, I think Mike Chapman should apologize to the entire county for his actions and lack of respect for the parents and to his fellow board member. He is angry with Mr. Geist because he supports the Charter Academy. Mr Chapman regularly fails to be articulate or conduct himself in a professional manner. Unfortunately the people spewing comments on this page have only a fraction of the information they need to make an informed decision on this amendment.

Steely...Here you go again, twisting my words for your own agenda. As I've posted before, the state should not be getting involved in local school districts if they are working and not problematic. As I've stated, if there is gross mismanagement, fraud, corruption or illegal acts being committed by the board, then yes, the state should get involved.

Based upon the link you provided, SACS has received "allegations of school board mismanagement". At this time, it's just allegations. Until SACS visits the school system, completes their review, and reports their findings, you should not convict and execute the board. If SACS does find problems, I have no issue with the state implementing changes as reasonably necessary.

One of the things that amazes me with your posts is your belief that all public school board members and all school administrators are in it for "the money" and for "their own interests"...as if the for-profit charter school management companies aren't in it for the money or for their own interests. Gee Whiz!

Let's use a little logic for a moment. Whose more likely to be interested in the welfair of the children? A) A for-profit company trying to maximize profits while residing outside of state (i.e. not vested in the local community) or B) Citizens residing in the local community who have not ulterior profit motive? Ding, Ding, Ding...We have a winner "B"!

Frank,
You left out C) A parent with a choice.

Thomas, parents have always had a choice.

Frank, Quit with the lies about 'twisting words for my agenda'. You've been crystal-clear that you believe parents should work with local school boards. Don't cowardly back off your own wording now. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire (as we saw in APS). Yet you feel that parents should just be trapped in failing school systems rather than have an alternative.

Indeed, let's use a "little logic". Who's more interested in the "welfair" (<-- nice public ed. spelling there!) of children, Frank? Those who LOSE THEIR JOBS if they don't educate the children? Or the local superintendents & admins who simply stick their greedy hands out for More Funding & 'step raises' when they repeatedly fail to educate 1 of 3 GA HS kids or their schools fail to meet CRCT standards?

There is no accountability whatsoever in GA public education. Locally, Petruzielo cares not about educating kids and why should he - he gets his fatcat gov't salary of $300K & monthly vehicle stipend REGARDLESS. Conversely, those in private & charter schools LOSE THEIR JOBS if their schools perform at the level many GA schools do. Logically, it's damn obvious who's more concerned: The people with the most to lose if they fail.

It's called "accountability", Frank. You liberal worshipers of Government have no idea of the definition of the word. Nor do you give a crap about educating children - only More Funding.

Or is this me just "twisting your words" again?

There is no accountability whatsoever in GA public education. Locally, Petruzielo cares not about educating kids and why should he - he gets his fatcat gov't salary of $300K & monthly vehicle stipend REGARDLESS. Conversely, those in private & charter schools LOSE THEIR JOBS if their schools perform at the level many GA schools do. Logically, it's damn obvious who's more concerned: The people with the most to lose if they fail.

@Steely Dan Totally the truth...When one of our charter teachers isn't up to par, they are gone that week or month...not allowed to continue to fail children year after year!

Frank, what about the poverty-stricken parents you've cited as examples in the past?

What choice have they 'always had'? Or am I just 'twisting your words' again?

And your example left out:

D) Local superintendents with signed contracts and 6-figure salaries that are not affected by a lack of student performance.

Even in your example, the logical answer is 'A', as no for-profit company lasts long if it loses its "customers" (here, those are the children they'd be failing to educate, which would result in their 'business' (private/charter school) being closed. For-profit companies don't have the luxury of begging for more tax dollars....unless it's Government Motors begging your hero president Obama for more of my money!)

@Thomas.....you said that so well, I gotta say, "AMEN"!

Choice - an abundance or variety from which to choose

Chapman’s Choice – if you don’t like it you can move

Hobson’s Choice – the choice of taking either that which is offered or nothing; the absence of a real alternative.

Sophie’s Choice - a choice between two persons or things that will result in the death or destruction of the person or thing not chosen.

Frank Jones' Choice - a chilling combination of Hobson’s and Sophie’s choices where the student/teacher/parent/taxpayer should just accept their fate and mediocrity is ok.

I don't trust public school teachers to not retaliate against my son, Diane. Some of them are quite petty people, incapable of separating a parent's opinion from their job of educating the parent's child. It's OK - they'll get their annual raises no matter how poorly they do their job. There's no accountability.

I'm sure some public schools do an adequate job of providing an education. Heck, a stopped clock is right twice a day. But I've learned over the years that some of us simply have higher standards of education than others. For us, 'adequate' isn't enough. For example, some fans of GA public schools think that a 66% statewide graduation rate is worthy of praise and is adequate. Others like me see major room for improvement. For unknown reasons, we're scorned by many GA public school supporters for desiring excellence, rather than mediocrity. For $7 taxpayer Billion annually, we should all demand better.

I'm glad that your daughter's school met your standards. My school district hasn't come close to meeting mine.

Nor mine. My area high school graduates less than 50%.

Diane, how has more money helped public schools to this point? We're spending $7 billion annually yet not graduating 1 of 3 HS students. Diverting taxpayer dollars to an alternative cannot possibly make things worse. We're already at the bottom-tier of American educational rankings. We've DOUBLED per-child spending in GA the past few decades...yet our metrics have embarrassingly decreased over that time period.

I know that "More money! More taxes" is the mantra of the liberal but at some point, adults need to admit that an idea is a failure and come up with something new. That time is now. Passing 1162 is a step in the right direction. Continuing to throw money at the same supers & admins already failing our children and expecting different results without accountability is complete, total insanity.

That's true. One can argue about the track records of either. Looking at areas where performance on CRCT scores and violence is a problem, and comparing independent charters with traditional publics in that same area, there is no argument. The charters help those students best! Apples to Apples. But here's another important difference. When an independent public charter doesn't meet its objectives, charter law REQUIRES it to close. The children are that important. When a traditional public school has high crime and low graduation rates, they become a perennial feeder system for prison. Only when an extraordinary leader/teacher, willing to catch the heart and trust of caring parents, is able to push past the alienating bureaucracy of school boards do we see school improvement. Some believe that school independence, on a level field, with a fair share, is exactly what the current system stakeholders are afraid of. Why else would you stop parents from giving it their own best effort? Are they suggesting that a governing board of parents, community leaders and teachers are less capable than the average school board?

I've got a penny stock that only pays 4 out of 10 times. Few investors would go for that when odds favor more current, effective, and promising investment methods. A good charter school removes the shackles from a good teacher, a good traditional school has a good teacher fighting everyday against a system inflexible to all children's needs.